“You always say you’re gonna do it, but you never do. I just want to make sure tonight is the real thing.”
UPDATE: On Friday, June 16, 2017, Michelle Carter, now 20, was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. She will be sentenced in August and faces up to twenty years in prison.
UPDATE: Michelle Carter, sentenced to 15 months for involuntary manslaughter for persuading her boyfriend to kill himself, was released from prison on January 23, 2020, months ahead of schedule due to good behavior.
I feel the judge made the right call by finding her guilty. Not everyone agrees. Some are of the opinion that his decision was wrong, that somehow it jeopardizes free speech, that it’s some sort of slippery slope that will land people in prison if they tell someone to drop dead in a moment of anger. They say that Michelle wasn’t there when he died, so there’s no way she can be responsible.
All of this is ridiculous. People who say these things don’t understand coercion, and they don’t understand how vulnerable Conrad was, or how Michelle knew that and cruelly took advantage of it.
Michelle Carter purposely and relentlessly manipulated a depressed–and therefore vulnerable–young man into committing suicide. That has nothing to do with free speech. It has something to do with murder.
I don’t know if she’s a psychopath, but if she isn’t one, she might as well be. Her actions were psychopathic. What she did was so cold, so calculating, so morally reprehensible that it defies comprehension by anyone with a conscience. I feel terrible for Conrad’s family, for their loss and for their struggle to make sense of something that makes no sense.
“I don’t believe she has a conscience,” Conrad Roy’s mother, Lynn Roy, said. “I think she needs to be held responsible for her actions because she knew exactly what she was doing and what she said.”
Another thing I’m hearing (and heard all along) is how this jeopardizes assisted suicide, or how what she did was legal because there’s no law against assisted suicide in Massachusetts. What does this have to do with assisted suicide?! It would never be considered ethical to assist a person to end their life when their primary problem is depression. The only ethical thing to do would be to treat the depression. And it would NEVER be ethical or acceptable to “assist” someone to end their life by relentlessly harassing, coercing, manipulating and even commanding them into doing it, no matter what was wrong with them.
“I thought you really wanted to die but apparently you don’t. I feel played and stupid,” Carter wrote.
Conrad got out of the truck. He wasn’t sure he wanted to die. Michelle responded by ordering him to “get back in.” I find myself at a loss for words when I contemplate that. Maybe none are needed, because it speaks so clearly for itself.
Conrad got out of the truck. He wasn’t sure he wanted to die. Michelle responded by ordering him to “get back in.”
TAUNTON, MA – JUNE 6: Michelle Carter listens as ADA Maryclare Flynn makes her opening statement, displaying many texts between Carter and Conrad Roy III, as the trial of Carter proceeds in Bristol County Superior Court in Taunton, MA on Jun. 6, 2017. Carter is charged with involuntary manslaughter for encouraging the 18-year-old Conrad Roy III to kill himself in July 2014. (Photo by Pat Greenhouse/The Boston Globe via Getty Images)
What follows is the original blog post.
It looks like Michelle Carter’s psychopathic cat might be out of the bag.
Carter, 18, of Plainville, MA, was 17 when police say she encouraged her boyfriend, Conrad Roy, 18, to commit suicide. Roy, who had a history of severe depression and previous suicide attempts, was found dead in his car behind a K-Mart on July 13, 2014. He had used a generator to commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning.
“His death is my fault. Like, honestly I could have stopped it. I was the one on the phone with him and he got out of the car because it was working and he got scared and I fucken told him to get back in…”
(Quote from Carter’s text messages to a friend)
If this information is correct it seems she is callous, amoral, and without a conscience.
A judge will now decide whether Carter will face charges over his death. She will appear in court again on October 2. For an in-depth look at this case: NY Magazine, “Death by Text”.
“You’re finally going to be happy in heaven. No more pain,” she told him in one message. “It’s okay to be scared and it’s normal. I mean, you’re about to die.”
According to prosecutors, for almost a week Michelle Carter pressured Conrad to commit suicide until he finally gave in. She sent him over 1000 text messages alternating between harassing him into acting on his suicidal ideation, to counseling him to overcome his fear of death. At the same time she lied to police, his family, and her friends about his whereabouts before and after he poisoned himself with carbon monoxide in his pickup truck.
According to court documents, Carter talked with Roy on the phone for 43 minutes just before and during his suicide. At some point during the call, Roy exited his car (which was filling with carbon monoxide fumes) out of fear, but Carter convinced him to get back in.
His body was found in his pickup truck after his parents reported him missing.
“If the police read my messages with him I’m done. His family will hate me and I can go to jail.”
A text message exchange between Michelle and Conrad:
MICHELLE: You’re so hesitant because you keeping over thinking it and keep pushing it off. You just need to do it, Conrad. The more you push it off, the more it will eat at you. You’re ready and prepared. All you have to do is tum the generator on and you will be free and happy. No more pushing it off. No more waiting.
CONRAD: You’re right.
MICHELLE: If you want it as bad as you say you do it’s time to do it today.
CONRAD: Yup. No more waiting.
MICHELLE: Okay. I’m serious. Like you can’t even wait ’till tonight. You have to do it when you get back from your walk.
CONRAD: Thank you.
MICHELLE: For what?
CONRAD: Still being here.
MICHELLE: I would never leave you. You’re the love of my life, my boyfriend. You are my heart. I’d never leave you.
MICHELLE: I love you.
CONRAD: Love you, too.
Carter told Roy via text message that he would go “Straight to heaven, guided by God.” It is alleged that she asked him to delete the text messages before he died, in an apparent effort to cover her tracks.
After Conrad’s suicide, Carter sent a message to Roy’s mother dated July 25, 2014 — twelve days after his death. She wrote, “There was nothing anyone could do to save him no matter how hard they tried. I never tried harder at something in my life.”
What a liar.
Then she went on to use his suicide to make herself look like a caring and benevolent person. She muscled her way in and took over a fundraiser in Conrad’s name on behalf of suicide prevention.
Why did she do it? She wanted the power and control to manipulate a vulnerable, depressed person into his death. Making herself look good afterward, by playing the grieving girlfriend and good-hearted suicide fund raiser, was only a secondary gain (and an extra chance to get a thrill from duping others). Her image as an honor student and do-gooder was nothing but a cover for what she really was.
Carter was 17 at the time of Roy’s death, but she could still face punishment as an adult – up to 20 years in prison – if convicted. She is currently free on $2,500 bond, and while she awaits trial she’s been to the prom and to Disney World, as evidenced by photos on her Facebook page. No shame, no remorse. A judge ordered her to stay off social media until her trial is over, but her Facebook page is active — her mother is posting for her. This woman either has no sense, is in complete denial, or passed on her own psychopathy genes to her daughter.
Unfortunately, prosecutors have an uphill battle ahead of them. The case doesn’t neatly fit into any statute in Massachusetts.
“It’s not cyberbullying, it’s not harassment, it’s not stalking. So the prosecutor says, ‘This is reprehensible conduct, disgusting conduct, must-be-punished conduct,’ so he goes forward and says, ‘Let’s call this involuntary manslaughter.’ Does it neatly fit in that definition? Not so much. We really are going to have a test case here,” said CBS News’ legal analyst and former Massachusetts prosecutor Rikki Klieman.
Wait a minute. Involuntary manslaughter?
When a person is killed by someone who did not have “malice aforethought,” the killer is charged with manslaughter. Manslaughter is separate from murder, recognizing that people can occasionally kill each other without meaning to, and it tends to carry a reduced sentence. Involuntary manslaughter occurs as a result of negligence. The killer was not provoked, and did not mean to kill anyone, but his or her negligent actions led to a death. If someone can prove that the negligence was intentional, the charge may be upgraded to murder.
From the information available at this point, it is very clear she meant to kill him. Her negligence in not calling police when she could have saved his life by doing so was certainly intentional. Not only didn’t she try to stop him or get help, she mercilessly harassed and coerced him into committing suicide.
It seems a more appropriate charge would be depraved-heart murder, a much better fit than involuntary manslaughter. She acted knowingly and with depraved indifference. Her actions caused Conrad Roy’s death. Why should it make a difference that she did it via text messaging? To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant’s conduct must be wanton (without regard for what is right, just, humane, etc.; careless; reckless), deficient in a moral sense of concern, and lacking in regard for the life or lives of others. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.
“In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is an action where a defendant acts with a “depraved indifference” to human life and where such act results in a death. In a depraved-heart murder, defendants commit an act even though they know their act runs an unusually high risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to someone else. If the risk of death or bodily harm is great enough, ignoring it demonstrates a “depraved indifference” to human life and the resulting death is considered to have been committed with malice aforethought. In most states, depraved-heart killings constitute second-degree murder.” ~ Wikipedia
“If she really loved him as she said she did, why didn’t she try to persuade him not to. Every day you wake up and think why, why, why.”
Janice Roy, Conrad’s grandmother
Some legal pundits are saying what Carter did was immoral, but not illegal. Her defense attorney is citing freedom of speech laws and denying she had anything to do with his death, because she wasn’t physically present. “It’s a sad story, a tragedy, but it’s not manslaughter,” Cataldo says. “What we have here is a young man who made a voluntary decision to end his own life. It was his voluntary decision. His death was not caused by Michelle Carter.” He also claims that she was brainwashed into encouraging his suicide. Unless information becomes available that supports that claim, it doesn’t look very likely.
“In the interest of justice and the lives of other people who will be manipulated in the future, I hope this case has a favorable outcome in the name of justice. It will only if it serves to protect others from the manipulation of sick, twisted people.” Anonymous commentor, CBS News website
If you’re feeling suicidal, please get help right away. The numbers below will connect you with someone who will listen and help you consider other options. You and your life are never hopeless. Feeling this way is intense but temporary, and you will move beyond it, even if that’s hard to believe right now.
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-TALK (8255)
International Suicide Hotlines
♥ Thank you for reading.
37 thoughts on “Michelle Carter: Depraved Heart Murderer?”
This gave me chills. I remember when I tried to commit suicide multiple times to end the pain and escape my psychopathic ex and he sneered that it,”wasn’t the first time” one of his girlfriends had tried to kill herself. I don’t doubt it.
I’m sorry you had to experience such callousness and lack of empathy, Red. I’m sure many people have been driven over the edge by that kind of behavior. I’m glad you weren’t one of them.
Oh that story just broke my heart, this woman is obviously mentally ill…unfortunately that disgusting defensive lawyer (who are all the scum of the earth in my eyes) is most likely correct, if 25 people told me to kill myself its my decision whether to do it or not. Doubtful they can charge her with anything, That poor boy!
She needs to be locked up in a mental institute, no doubt, but what to get her on is the question.
The prosecutor called the words in Carter’s texts “hurtful, offensive and likely to cause a violent act,” adding that charges such as criminal harassment, stalking and threats are also based only on words. “One can be an aider and abetter simply because of words,” she said.
This will be an interesting case, at least, and possibly a groundbreaking one.
Definitely a Psychopath with a capital P! This person reminds me of the psycho I escaped from. I have no doubt that he was the cause of his son’s drug addiction and eventual death. Psychopaths NEVER give up. They are predators.. they stalk their prey, trap it, catch it, then kill it! This young man would have been tormented and brainwashed into committing suicide. They enjoy seeing others suffer and in particular if it is at their hand. It is Murder and no less.
In my pursuit at understandings what, why and how a psychopathic mind works, I find myself asking What is it that makes them the way they are? Surely we are all born the same? When reading and re-reading “Hare’s Without Conscience”, I found that he quoted Dr. Ken Magid’s book “High Risk: Children Without A Conscience”. I ordered the book immediately and received it today. I read the first few pages and already am horrified by what I read. Too late for adult psychopaths but some children can be saved and sometimes the solution is simple. Psychopathic children have never had their needs met. No hugging, no response when the child cries, not fed when he is hungry, etc… Today, we perceive that quality of time is more important than quantity. We put our children in a creche from the age of 3 months and even when younger! We are mass producing little psychopaths. Of course this is a generalisation but I can’t help but think back when my niece was put in creche when she was only a few weeks old. At the age of two, I caught her as she was about to strike my daughter with an iron bar she found in the garden. What made this picture a horror is my niece’ s face. It was EVIL. She still is horrible and dangerous but very sweet to those that don’t know her. She caused many grievances to her family.
She definitely is a Psychopath!
This girl was definitely a predator! She was relentless!
Interesting about the book, Anna. I’ve never read Magid’s book, but there is plenty of research to support the “nature,” or genetic and neurological aspects of psychopathy, which means they are indeed ‘born different.’ There is also plenty that supports the idea that in and of itself, those differences don’t create a psychopathic person — environment, or nurture, is a factor as well, and there is hope for prevention if those at risk are identified early.
She is not mentally ill she is just evil, he was mentally ill and becuase of that was able to be manipulatied. I wish people realize these people who are psychopaths and narcissistic are not mentally ill they just evil who know what they doing but enjoy taking you for a sucker. As a police officer I seen and talk to many of these animal to know they got a kick in hurting people and the joy they got. I dont feel sorry for them ask your self this when you was being abuse did you decide to go out abuse other people becuse you were suffering, no, so dont give these people a pass they know what they doing protect yourself and you family.
I’m sure you’ve seen a lot of them as a police officer. I think this case is an opportunity to expose the ones you didn’t see, the psychopaths who usually work behind the scenes destroying lives in ways considered immoral but not technically illegal, and who stay hidden because of that. Those are the kind of psychopaths most of us here dealt with.
What a chilling story
Illegal & Immoral of her!!!!
She is not insane. SHES JUST A PREDATOR. Remind you that she is an honor student & moving smoothly & successfully in complex social inviroments like fund raising at that young age. Super smart
Unlucky Condrad who meet this evil & smart person at his fregile young age & frigile emotional state. REST IN PEACE
What a surprise (how rare, i am being sarcastic) My gift giving P coworkers husband committed a suicide.
Thank you for never ceasing to EXPOSE Ps CONSISTENTLY SAME WAY OF OPERATIONs. So we globaly become an expert of the Ps STANDARD VICTIM DISTRUCTION MODEL.
Kudos, What a global public service by U !
Janes, you figured out my secret — “To expose the psychopath’s consistent method of operation in order to enable the development of a global expertise in recognizing the Standard Victim Destruction Model”
I think you’re right! Maybe that is exactly one of the main things I’m trying to do here. You’ve put it into words in a way I never could.
I love your sense of humor. U are very funny!
I accept the job offer as a volunteer. i am honored. Us the Global Psycho Busters :)
One story/post at a time, on comment at a time, one Book at a time we are stumbling into & perfecting the Psycho Repelent & a Pscho Flash Light. I read they are only afraid of 2 things
1- EXPOSURE(their success depends on secrecy/Dark)
2- A BIGGER PSYCHO
Again about the Poor Late Conrad’s Murder, it looks like no brainer. Everything she said & done are blatant. Because she is too young she put things in writing & if she hadnt cought I CANT IMAGINE HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE SHE COULD HAVE RUINED as she grew more experienced & older. This post was about Operational Study Case of how young & inexperienced Psychos(little ones) .
Its hearth breaking what happened to Conrad & I hope Justices punishes her to the utmost, so it deters in the future other Psychos who make people commit suicide rampantly.
its shocking only another Psycho sees a fellow Psycho instantly & its extremely difficult for non-Psychos see them instantly
thats all from me for awhile
The Psycho Flashlight and Psycho Repellent are perfect companions to the Psychopath Decoder Ring! You are hereby pronounced President of Product and Slogan Development.
This case looks like a no-brainer and it should be, but apparently the legal technicalities might pose some problems. Yes, this Operational Study Case (there you go again!) is an example of a young and inexperienced psychopath who made a grave mistake and exposed herself early. This is a chance to do something about it, because she will go on to ruin other lives in one way or another. Whether anything is done remains to be seen. It seems like these golden opportunities to shed light on the seriousness of their manipulation pass by without that ever happening, even though there’s intense public interest (think of Joyce Mitchell). But even if this information were made known to a wider audience, most people would probably say what we’ve all heard before — “That could never happen to me.” Psychopathic manipulation is hard to grasp if you haven’t experienced it.
i’m gonna die if i dont say this.
HOW IS THIS DIFFRENT THEN CULT LEADERS KILLING THEIR FOLLOWERS ( aka COOL AID & TEXAS COMPOUND killings) ?
As as the organizations uniform we all be jeweled up & loaded with lethal weapons against
*Psycho Decoder Ring
*Psycho Flash Light
*Psycho Night Vision Gagles. So the Unsuspecting See them in the dark the Mask wearers
(that u are in process of perfecting)
Have a Great Weekend !
I don’t think it’s much different at all, but in the case of the cult leader, he might have been present or he at least provided the Kool-Aid.
I love the uniform idea! Jewels and lethal, high-tech gadgets are right up my alley. I’ll write it up as the Official Uniform Policy, and get to work designing those Psycho Night-Vision Goggles. You can take this weekend off, Janes. Have fun!
My ex forced me to take an overdose. He used physical force to push tablets and water down my throat, then carried on encouraging me until he was satisfied. He then blamed me for being unstable and denied ever being in the room. He continues in his manipulation with our kids and is set in ruining their and my lives.
How terrible, Gill. I’m so sorry to hear you went through that, and that he continues to attempt to ruin your and your children’s lives. I hope you and the kids are getting the support you need. I hear things like this too often, and there needs to be a way to expose this kind of abuse and stop it. Best wishes to you and your family.
this happened to me. the first time it worked and I ended up in intensive care then a psych ward. it was horrible. when I was released there was contact and he called me a murderer in gods eyes and had no remorse for me. I fell back under his spell and he tried again saying I was old and fake and no one would want me. this time I fought back. it was difficult but I didn’t succumb. it took a year of anxiety and doctors but I am living again .
I’m happy to hear you’re living again, Gia. Good thing he didn’t succeed! What a tragedy it is when they do. I can’t imagine how many suicides are caused by psychopaths pretending to be our lovers and friends. Even if they don’t do it obviously, like the waste product in the article did, they can drive someone to that point by making them believe they’re worthless, and then applying heavy doses of contempt and callous disregard. If there’s one thing not worth dying for in this world, it’s a psychopath.
I feel so bad for all of you. I thought of suicide constantly before and after he left me. His first wife attempted suicide while married to him and succeeded later after they had been divorced. His sister killed herself also. These people are so dangerous because they have no empathy and enjoy people’s suffering. It is all about them and no one else matters. I am alive because I got help. Five different therapists. Three said he was a narcissistic psychopath. I had never heard of the term psychopath except for mass murderers. These people are just as dangerous but are often cowards who try to make you destroy yourself. My husband like to blame me and everyone everyone else for his failings. He thinks he is perfect and will never feel guilt for destroying his family or me. I am much better now and my friends and children have kept my spirits up and I will never give him the pleasure of seeing me destroyed or defeated. All of you can do this too but it takes time. My sister and son call me everyday to just say hi and listen. Make sure you have a person who is your lifeline . It will keep you going. I though I couldn’t live without my husband but finally I see how I would have died if I’d stayed. I am ok now and you will be too.
Thanks for supporting and encouraging others here, Joan!
Is there any evidence that a psychopath has ever been rehabilitated? I doubt it sincerely. Once discovered they should be removed from society permanently. This female as well. Lock them up together and let them try to game each other! But they are such master manipulators they are able to fool and con both psychologists and psychiatrists. Our greatest protection is to keep educating ourselves as to what they are and do and to stay aware! This website is incredibly helpful! Thank you.
Not that I know of, Marsha. No one knows how to treat this disorder and the consensus seems to be that it isn’t possible, at least at this point in time. Many of them actually spend less time in prison because they’re able to con parole boards. Educating ourselves is the best (and the only) thing we can do right now. I’m glad you find the website helpful! Thank you.
This woman is absolutely no doubt a killer psychopath. I so feel for that young mans family. I just don’t get how these people are so powerful and persuasive. I remember the first time I met the OW. Immediately a red flag went up. I’d never felt threatened by another female ever. But this one left cold chills in me. I thought I was being paranoid and overly dramatic. Turns out my gut was right
They are very persuasive. This gal-psychopath mainly used the tactic of pretending to love him and then acting “encouraging,” reassuring him that he’d go to heaven, that she’d take care of his family, that he’d be happy, etc., although she was downright bullying and impatient at many times. This poor guy believed she loved him, and in his depressive state he probably believed she was trying to help him. She also used the tactic of being absolutely RELENTLESS. She did not let up until he was dead.
You have to be mentally unstable to think that way, a normal person doesn’t think that way- evilness, mentally ill – neither one is a “pass” Anyone can turn dirty or just be born that way, this woman is sick, no matter if she’s evil or mentally disturbed. IMO
I absolutely agree! Mentally ill or no, that is no excuse for abuse!
A very sad story indeed. How many of us could have been pushed to end our lives? Yes, suicide is extreme, but when I think about my relationship with the psychopath ALL of it was extreme. The highs and lows were extreme. The way I betrayed myself and my children was extreme. The things I did, all in the name of love was extreme! While one is in the midst of it, you can’t really see that the things we do for love are actually the antithesis of love.
I was recently thinking about what lead me to accept such manipulation and behave so stupidly. It was depravity! I can recall how every single day, in one form or another, the psychopath depraved me of love, attention, sex, permission, acknowledgement, acceptance etc. Everyday, I fought hard to get him to stop depriving me, desperate for the man who once adored, cherished and loved me. I wanted that man back and I did almost anything to get him back, And yes, fighting for that fantasy man almost killed me.
The reason we fight for love is because love represents safety. It translates into feeling soothed and protected. However, in the hands of a psychopath your love could actually be the death of you.
in the hands of a psychopath your love could actually be the death of you
Yes, and if not actual, physical death, then a soul or psychological death. Fortunately, it is possible to come back from this kind. Not easy, but possible.
She is demented. I dated someone for years who convinced me everyday that I was worthless and I didn’t deserve to live. After I got away from him I spent years in counseling trying to get rid of all the horrible things he said, repeating in my mind. She is one of those people. She is awful and she will rot in hell for what she did. But until then, she deserves to rot in prison.
Michelle Carter: congratulations on killing a beautiful young boy. Congratulations on RUINING his family’s lives, for causing so many people pain so you could have attention. There is a special place next to the devil in Hell for you. I hope you burn over and over, everyday, for eternity.
How horrible, Chelsey. I’m so sorry to hear you experienced that. Michele Carter should not get away with what she did. The technicalities of the law that might hinder justice do not hide the clear truth of what happened or what kind of person she is. She’s a murderer who murdered someone. Case closed.
Best wishes to you, Chelsey.
the only grain of hope that i can take from this man’s murder (and i am calling it murder) is that more legal awareness and awareness in general will go towards how dangerous predators can hurt and kill people from afar, meaning online.
i was horribly abused online for two years by the psychopath i became involved with. i nearly attempted suicide on more than one occasion. while the man did not tell me to do it, he was certainly instrumental in the crazy-making that my life became.
society talks a lot about online predation but it seems to be directed towards children and teens and that is good, but in my case, i thought that as an adult i would just know better. i did not know better. it has been three years since i met the man on a writers site i joined and i have spent thousands of dollars on therapy costs to get a handle on what he has done to me.
i hope that our society wakes up fast to what happens online. not to only children but to grown men and women. predators are in a playground here and predators are using it to torment people, at times to their death. enough. i’ve had enough of it.
it makes me very, very sad and angry and i feel sick when i read what this girl has done. i hope laws are created to stop these people and put them in jail, away from all electronics as they should be.
The knowledge of adults being victimized online seems limited to online dating scams and dangers, and Nigerian financial scams. But others, like you, were targeted in forums unrelated to dating. It could happen on any site where people communicate with each other. It doesn’t even matter if they never meet in person — it can be just as damaging when the whole ‘relationship’ takes place online. Lisa, I hope you’re still feeling hopeful and doing a little better.
thank you adelyn, for validating my experience. you are absolutely right. when i went online to the site i speak of, i always had in my mind exactly what you describe, dating sites and internet scams.
i never would have imagined another writer on a writing site targeting someone (me) and i was completely unaware of the red flags of cluster b personalities. i just thought it would be painfully obvious if someone was off and i’d keep my distance from them.
this guy moved in slowly and in retrospect there are all the red flags. but this is three years too late for me. and the isolation of keeping it to myself because there are no ‘real life’ support groups is really challenging me lately.
i really thank you for your blog as i honestly don’t know if i could handle this completely alone. you are doing the right thing here. it is a blessing to all of us survivors.
Someday, every city, no matter how small, will have a support group for people who’ve encountered psychopaths and narcissists. It may be a long way off, but I think it will happen because I see that a few big cities already have them. In the meantime, we have to get support where we can find it. I’m very glad the blog helps you, Lisa.
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