Dole or Chiquita? Either way, this guy’s bananas.
Is he or isn’t he? That is the question.
Or is it?
“We had a fight, and I can see that he is genuinely feeling awful from the pics he posts of himself on FB. I know there are different levels of psychopathy, but if he were a psychopath he wouldn’t be able to feel awful, right? During this relationship I have become very unwell, I have internalized everything as my fault, I never feel ‘good enough’ and I my self-esteem and confidence are gone. I tell him I am sorry all the time. But I just want to know the EXACT diagnosis. What if I’m wrong and I leave him, but he’s not really a psychopath?” ~ message from a reader
Even if you’re wrong, it’ll be the best mistake you ever made. When someone blames you for everything and leaves you without self-esteem and feeling “unwell,” their diagnosis is irrelevant.
I get many letters like the one above from readers who aren’t absolutely certain if their partner is a psychopath or not, and they want help figuring it out. Often, part of my response is “You’re asking for relationship advice on a website about psychopaths. That, in and of itself, indicates there is something seriously wrong.”
“It’s easy to get obsessed with, fixated on, “labels” and diagnostic categories like sociopath, psychopath, malignant narcissist, narcissist, etc… Does it really matter what precise label — accurate or not — you affix to an individual when he’s proven to be emotionally unavailable, or a compulsive liar, or an abusive personality, or a chronically selfish, self-centered partner, or a chronic, comfortable manipulator and deceiver?”
People can be manipulators, liars, cheaters, and crazymakers, but not be psychopaths. Maybe he or she is a narcissist or has antisocial personality disorder. And since psychopathy is a spectrum disorder that can exist in varying intensities and degrees, your partner could have some psychopathic traits, but not all of them. What really matters is whether or not the person is capable of having a healthy relationship, and for anyone with the disorders just mentioned, the answer is no. What’s important is this:
What effect has being in a relationship with this person had on you?
A lot of people get hung up on analyzing their partner, when all they need ever do is take a look at their own psychological and emotional state.
Easier said than done, I know, when you have invested time, love, and yourself in a relationship and are trying to save it. I can only say this as someone who has come out the other side and who is now able to look back and see things clearly. Hindsight is 20/20, but how can we see what’s happening more clearly while in the thick of it?
Many of us have gotten stuck in the quicksand of ‘is he or isn’t he a psychopath?’ but the basic question should be, “Is he or she damaging me, my sanity, my self worth, my life, my well-being, my peace of mind?”
Of course it’s not always easy to answer that question accurately after being manipulated and blamed for all the problems in a relationship, and this is one of the main reasons we try to diagnose them. If we can’t, we may be left with lingering doubt and wondering if we really are or were to blame.
“After years of being manipulated it’s easy to get into the habit of doubting yourself… Still, as hard as it might be, one of the most important tasks any recovering person has before them is to end the destructive cycle of self-doubt and blame.”
~George Simon, PhD, Life After a Manipulator
A reader wrote,
“I can’t figure out who he really is, and it’s driving me crazy. On the one hand, he treats me like a goddess and he loves me, but on the other, he rejects me and treats me like he doesn’t care at all, and he cheats on me. I don’t know how he really feels about me.”
When we can’t decide who someone really is or how they really feel about us, that’s a Big Red Flag. Ideally, if we can’t figure out if someone is Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde, we wouldn’t waste any time trying. We’d see it for what it is, and head for the nearest exit. And not knowing where you stand with someone (and dealing with the anxiety and uncertainty that goes with it) is in and of itself a red flag.
Granted, victims of psychopaths (and other cluster B disorders) suffer great harm from the extreme manipulation and lack of empathy they’ve been subjected to, and that needs to be addressed so lasting harm doesn’t result. A diagnosis could help define what you’ve experienced. But whether you’re certain of a diagnosis or not, the harm is the same. It makes no difference if that harm was caused by a “psychopath” or by an extremely manipulative, callous, and self-centered person who was deceitful and untrustworthy and who lacked empathy, compassion, and the ability to love. See what I mean? It’s exactly the same thing, only without the label.
All photos courtesy of Ryan McGuire of Ithaca, NY
♥ Love to all
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This article is spot on. Thanks!
You’re welcome, Linzi. Glad you liked it.
Every time I think I’m strong enough (emotionally) I leave and swear I’ll never go back to what I like to call “the nuthouse”. This man has manipulated me for over 2 years. My family can’t stand him or my friends. But for some reason I just keep going back for more. Like one close friend said to me “He’s like a drug to you” – believe me I’m not on drugs but that is what it seems like. I hate being away from him and think about him constantly but when I’m with him – you can tell he doesn’t care at all for me. He can take me or leave me – his actions and his words have proved that.
How do you stop going back to someone you feel so emotionally tied to? Every time I think I’m done with him – I go crawling back and happy just to be with him. Does anyone have any advice that would help me. Thank you.
Yes, he IS exactly like a drug! There is no difference between what you’re experiencing with him and what you would with an addiction to alcohol or anything else. Addictions cause people to keep repeating a behavior that is ruining their lives. Please read the last post, “Intensity or Intimacy?” Best wishes to you, Mary.
Your words about always being blamed tore at my heart.My own children blame me.There is no need in trying to explain yourself. It took me years to learn this. They are, and I hate to say it, but they are just to good or maybe the word is evil.Our normal minds don’t think in their perverse way so there’s no way we can beat them.So I just let the blame lay where it may. They can be kissing you on the neck with their charming ways and at the exact same time they may be thinking about cutting your throat. How do you even play such a game?
I’m sorry your kids blame you, Teresa. As sad as it is, it sounds as if you’ve gotten to a place of acceptance. You’re right, it can be futile — not to mention extremely frustrating — to try to explain yourself and what happened, and not get anywhere. Often it’s those closest and who mean the most to us who can’t understand. The good thing I hear in your words is that you’re not blaming yourself.
There are evil-minded people in the world, but that doesn’t have to mean the world is evil. Although I do understand how they can make it seem that way! They do an incredible amount of damage for the small minority that they are.
Yes…they use your friends, and family to destroy you… You are fortunate if you have no kids with them!! It could be that the children of psychopaths become scotiopaths!!!
Psychopaths usually have flying monkeys or minions around them that they use to do their dirty work. The amount of movies and tv shows with the Dracula theme or minions shows how prevalent they are in our society!
Thanks again. This is one of the most useful pieces of advice you’d given me awhile back. After 2 and a half yrs of no contact, there was a recent incident in which she surprisingly smiled warmly and said hi and asked how I was doing—-but actually, after the initial “hi”, she’d immediately looked away as she asked how I was doing—-She didn’t really want to engage with me—And I was in a surprised state, so hadn’t replied anyway. After that, she seemed cold & harsh during an ensuing brief business thing between us, and even seemed angry when I didn’t leave the space immediately after that. However, then when I actually was leaving awhile later, she peeked out from behind her book (with most of her face still hidden, escept for one eye and half a smile) & wished me a good afternoon. Huh. So, what was this??? It was half pleasant and half unpleasant. And it didn’t lead to me feeling good. I don’t know if she’s a psychopath or just self-absorbed in whatever she feels she needs to do to handle my existence in the same community….however the important thing has been to recognize that it’s how I feel after an encounter that’s significant and that a diagnosis of her is irrelevant. More & more I’m able to recognize and really feel the truth of how I don’t want to have to deal with a person who acts the way she does. So, doing good, and the grief has continued to recede significantly over the wks & months. Thanks again.
It’s definitely advice worth repeating. I know, because I had to tell myself the same thing over and over again. Funny thing is, now I can’t imagine how I ever doubted it! Never underestimate the power of manipulation. But even more, never underestimate our power to see the truth and get free from it!
I’m glad you recognized that her strange greeting didn’t leave you feeling good. That is the important thing, as you said. As I think back to all of your comments, I know there’s something seriously “off” with this woman. Whatever it is, it’s serious, and it’s bad for you. I’m glad to hear your grief has continued to subside, Jan.
Great article, thank you.
Thank YOU, Nikita. Nice to hear from you.
Exactly! It takes a lot of self-discipline and determination to stay away from P. I also drift away in my mind and slip away from reality, wondering what it woud be like… and then I STOP!!! Reality is that I couldn’t stand living feeling like I did when I was with him. I felt anxious, insecure, not loved, left behind and betrayed. That’s why I left. These weekly posts really keep me determined and calm that I did the right thing. Of course, he comes by every day to pick up our son, and tries to pull me back in by offering vacation together, marriage counciling and things like that, and my answer is always firm and determined no. But the little devil behind my back keeps saying “what if, why not?”. I can’t wait to heal and feel less alone and abandoned and betrayed, it’s only been 26 days away and free from P. Keep up your good work with writing, you make my hard times easier! :)
Brightie, I’m so glad you’re feeling determined and calm, at least some of the time. Twenty six days is so fresh, and having to see him every day makes it so much harder, not to mention him asking you to take a vacation, etc. Stay strong! and continue to ignore that little devil who tells you those lies designed to bring doubt. You know you had good reason to leave. I’m grateful that I can help make this very difficult time just a little easier for you.
Wanting to know… It can be a problem. We often don’t want to judge others unfairly…it’s tied up with our view of ourselves. It is also one of the reasons psychopaths target us… It’s a vulnerability they look for!
If your concience is telling you wou don’t want to judge someone unfairly… It’s more than likely, they are what your reptile brain is telling you…that something’s wrong feeling is your reptile brain telling you it recognizes this person as a dangerous person… Listen to it! It has evolutionary experience with this kind of person!!!!
Yes, exactly! What many of us have is the ability to see the “good” in a person even when it isn’t there. We certainly wouldn’t want to judge someone unfairly now, would we? We’re not the kind of people who want to do something like that. But there comes a time when we have to save ourselves, when we realize that no healthy relationship would require us to sacrifice ourselves. It would give back what we give to it. Thanks for your comment, Tom.
That term…evolutionary experience, is an important concept… Our reptile brain got this experience from millions of years of selection…psychopathic personalities trick you into their clutches and will eat you(even their own species) and use you for their own survival at the expence of your survival… Parasites!
I know I’ve read in a few places that we are hardwired through evolution to recognize them as a threat, but it seems most of us were still taken by surprise. It’s hard to recognize something you don’t (intellectually) know exists, especially when it’s doing all it can to talk you out of any misgivings you have so it can feed on you. Now I know, and I hope my reptilian brain, along with all I’ve learned, will do the job if another happens to come along.
A related problem is that there are mechanisms in place to protect psychopaths and their hiding places! They (the proverbial they that is, lol) did a study on businesses(corporations) and deduced that they often(but not always!) act just like psychopaths… Eg;
No feelings, wreck less disregard for the safety of others, lying, no friends, incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, does not care about the feelings of others, no concience, ect…
Subject…the corporation
Conclusion…psychopath
Corporations look for psychopaths for their higher-ups because they have these deficiencies!… It makes them money! Half the problems in this world are because of this single fact!
Oh look he’s a wonderful business man! But she has a successful business, why is she in jail?
This kind of stuff confuses our reptile brain…
It does confuse, and corporations are equally confused, because most of these people will shine at first, in the short run, before running the company into the ground, or at least causing some serious financial harm and possibly damage the company name by dragging it through the mud (not to mention the harm they do to others employed there). Of course they could just earn billions, like the Wall Streeters did, and not have to face any consequences at all.
This topic is certainly something I’ve seriously wrestled with, thank you for writing about it.
You’re welcome, Asheley. It’s something we all wrestle with, until we accept that they were the way they were and did what they did, for whatever reason, and that it was toxic to us. Later on, when you can look back at it more clearly, it will either become apparent that yes, he was a psychopath, or that whatever he was, he was not good for you. The brief periods of bliss we experienced were powerful, but they can’t make up for a relationship that, overall, diminished us and filled us with angst.
My ex psychopath (that I work with), contacted me recently…After 3 months of NO CONTACT to tell me that he thinks I should “go with him” to visit a very sick mutual friend in the hospital. I politely thanked him and refused saying I would see her on my own one day when she felt up to having visitors….”OK” was his response…”it would have been nice to see you..” (he hasn’t been to work in month) So I asked “why don’t u come to work anymore – you could see me there?” He went on to explain he’s on disability…bla.bla…that he missed me and loves me…bla bla..and that he has a new live in girlfriend! They moved in together after only a month of Knowing each other..Needless to say I was shocked at this..he went on to explain that he developed ED (erectile dysfunction) and she has him going to couples counselling. He sed she makes him tense but that my energy/aura makes him feel relaxed and good…..hmmm im thinking..what role does this idiot think he’s gonna get me to play in his life THIS time? Muse? Sex surrogate??! Have sex with me so he can have better sex with her??!! Omg! He kissed me deeply at the end of the visit, Confirming he indeed wanted to “start in”…But after he left I began to see the intricate act of manipulation coming into view…he was going to try to say that I gave him the ED because I left so abruptly an would not speak to him at all..and that he probably wanted ME to help him with this little problem…typical I thought…Distance is what has given me so much insight into this very sick mind of his and I just want to say to everyone that I recommend it highly..JUST SAY NO…and GET AWAY as fast and as far as u can!! U will never understand these people and u will never help or rehabilitate them! It’s a vicious circle that plays on your kindness and decency…i feel no guilt because I am onto him now and he Knows it which is why he quickly moved on to his next victim.
Distance — and time — are what’s needed to begin to see things clearly. I’m glad you saw what he was trying to do, Roro. It’s pathetic that a grown man would act like that, but I guess you can’t expect normal behavior from someone who isn’t normal. I’m happy you’re breaking free of this louse, and I wish you all the best in times to come!
Wonderful subject and absolutely spot on! I agree with you and also believe we survivors keep asking the question: “Is he really a psychopath?” because we are driven to see the best in people, so we give people, we love, the benefit of the doubt. Wrapping our brains around the fact that our ex has “no best” is like mental gymnastics. I know I went round and round with that question for a very long time. I read and re read Hare’s checklist over and over, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. Ultimately, what it all comes down to is understanding that the men who drove us to research psychopathy operate without a conscience. They never loved us. The initial live-bombing we thought was genuine interest and adoration was nothing more than an adrenaline rush for them. These guys just love the game, they don’t love us. They love making us fall for them, they don’t love us. They love how we love them, they don’t love us. So call them whatever you want, any man who is driven by a need to manipulate a woman for his own selfish gain is evil. Once we truly comprehend that people like this exist, we can burn that bond.
It’s no easy feat! First, we have to wrap our brains around what it means to be a psychopath, or maybe a sociopath or narcissist. Then, we have to apply it to the person that we loved most. I remember how shocked and saddened I was! And I felt so deeply disappointed. Beyond disappointed! But yes, the bond has been burned. Once you understand, and it has time to sink in, there’s nothing else that can happen. Disbelief and wishful thinking go on for a while, but not forever.
I love a all these comments. Some very wise people here with good information to help us stay strong and remember the truth. Thank you.
I’m certain everyone here thanks you for that, Justine!
I really love your posts and am so so grateful for all the information i have gathered and assimilated here. This post especially is so spot on where we keep on trying to apply and diagnose what the person is because its difficult to walk away. I am not going to do this to myself any more. Its becoming more and more easier to walk away from toxic people, psychopaths or not. THANK you for all you do.
Thank you, Ann, I’m so glad the info here helps!
I actually started seeing a therapist about a month before it ended. I wanted her to help me diagnose him, as I sat there telling her of all the rotten things he said and did. She helped me to see he was the same rotten person no matter what I called him.
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet…
I love this blog! Good job :) Come visit my sociopath survivor blog at
theyputaspellonyou.wordpress.com
Thank you, Harmony. And best of luck to you with your blog! You’re off to a good start. theyputaspellonyou.wordpress.com
Here’s one you might be able to use:
Isiah 59:4-8 “They rely on empty arguments, they utter lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil. 5They hatch the eggs of vipers and spin a spider’s web. Whoever eats their eggs will die, and when one is broken, an adder is hatched. 6Their cobwebs are useless for clothing; they cannot cover themselves with what they make. Their deeds are evil deeds, and acts of violence are in their hands. 7Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. They pursue evil schemes; acts of violence mark their ways. 8The way of peace they do not know; there is no justice in their paths. They have turned them into crooked roads; no one who walks along them will know peace.”
I’m not religious, but that’s pretty powerful.
That verse is powerful!!
No, it doesn’t really matter what the evil doer is called, what matters is that he does evil deeds. BUT when I discovered psychopaths and love it was incredible for me. Every feeling stirring in me and every question I couldn’t answer were here. Every exact thing I was experiencing mirrored the psychopathic bond and emotional rape. It was a gift to put a name to a situation I couldn’t explain. If not for realizing that he was most likely a psychopath, I probably wouldn’t have been able to live with myself much longer, as I felt I deserved all the blame for pushing away the love of all loves.
I’m so glad P&L helped you put a name to what you experienced, Asheley. It’s very true that doing that enables us to see what really happened. Sometimes, though, in fact most of the time, when we first consider that the person may have been psychopathic, we go back and forth in believing it. It’s shocking and it’s a rather radical label to give someone, so it’s normal not to do so lightly. The problem is that when someone is in the mode of “No way, he can’t really be a psychopath!” they seem to discount all of the things that led them to that discovery. The self-blame comes back, and reconciliations happen.
What I’m trying to get across here is that even if someone isn’t 100% sure, do they really need to be? The fact that what happened is bringing them to the point of even considering psychopathy as being a factor is more than enough evidence that the relationship is or was a highly toxic one.
There are factors in the waffling we do when first learning a psychopath has been manipulating us…
One is there are varieties of psychopaths(maybe I’m trying to say strengths of, or percentages of psychopathy) ….there are also sociopaths as well … it doesn’t matter if they are 10% psychopath! or 100%.. Or even a sociopath… They hide what they are!
The reality is; it is a predator… The only way to survive is to remove your self from their vicinity and make sure you never put yourself where they can attack you again!!! Make sure you don’t ever think there are no predators lurking, because our society breeds these predators! And hides them!
#1… Survive!
#2… Hide yourself
#3… Heal
#4… Remember… you are prey! It’s dangerous to think there are no predators!!!
Great advice, Tom. And while it may not be possible or even advisable to completely “hide” while we’re healing, I know that for myself it was important to hang back and take the time I needed to learn more about what happened. It was really vital to feeling much less vulnerable once I was ready to venture out into the world again.
Repeat after me…
Lions and tigers and bears! Oh! My!
And not the fluffy kind that live on your bed!
Teeth and claws and totally unpredictable … they hide so they can eat you!
Tom, I think you’re being somewhat of an alarmist now…
I think it’s important to live a normal life, and not become paranoid. I hope you’re not doing that.
Did you not hide from the psychopath that abused you? I didn’t hide for a long time… I should have!
It would have been better to move away and minimize contact with her. And unless you want to be like them, don’t try and hurt them…you can’t do it cause they don’t feel like a normal human bean does!
I don’t believe I’m being paranoid… I was using the wizard of oz to over state the point… It’s amazing how many veiled references to psychopathy there are… The wicked witch and her flying monkeys can be used directly,lol
Yes, the flying monkeys! That movie is about a lot more than Dorothy’s trip to Oz.
I’ll admit, I thought you were losing it for a moment there. I didn’t realize it was to overstate the point. Hiding, in the sense of gaining time and distance from them, is a smart thing to do. I wasn’t sure if you were speaking of ‘hiding’ in general, from the world and all the potential predators, forever. I hid in the sense of not going anywhere I thought he might be. There were plenty of other places to go. The last thing I wanted was to see him.
I totally agree with your response and am thankful for you and your site Admin!
Thank you so much, Asheley. I’m so glad that I can help.
I have a strange question, I strongly suspect ex was a cover narcisist…it’s been a year if NC and he has since married the woman he was seeing at the same time as me for possibly 2 years. In those 2 years he told me so many lies, gas lighted me (when I questioned him and her photos on Facebook he would say I had an imagination and nothing he could say or do would change that). He love bombed me in the beginning and I thought he was such a great kind loving man who ended up hurting me with lies, disrespectful, and once I confronted him with proof of some lies, just stopped talking to me, no official break up, discarded me.
He put me through hell and I don’t want him to be happy even though he posts happy pics all over social media of them and their wedding. So…I actually want him to be a covert narc so that I know the new wife isn’t better than me. This killed my self esteem,,,
I see what you’re saying, but whether he’s a bona fide narcissist or only acts exactly like one really doesn’t make a difference. His character will never change, and he will bring it to his new relationship. We all go through a period of wondering if the new partner is somehow ‘better’ than us, but when we finally realize what kind of a person it is we lost, we’re glad they’re gone. Please know that I’m not intending to minimize your feelings. I’m know it hurts terribly to have him leave for someone else. But no matter what he is, just because he’s left doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. If he didn’t appreciate your love, and your good qualities, it does not mean there was anything less in what you had to offer. I hope you will go on to embrace all that makes you YOU, as a unique individual, and be sure of your own worth, despite anyone else’s opinion. All the best to you.
You should break all contact…
He is using facebook to make you feel bad and bolster his fake identity… And make you feel for his new victim
I don’t think, with the kind of manipulation he is using, that you can help his newest victim… He is telling her things that make you look like perpetrator, and him the victim. You know it yourself… Would you have believed someone telling you he is a bad person? a psychopath? You may have even had someone try to tell you, but you would have brushed it off. Anything you say to people who know you both will be twisted around by him!
Don’t fall into the trap of trying to make him feel bad…
Lack of emotion and using your emotions against you is one of the traits of a
psychopath…
Look at the page “stages of the psychopathic bond” again
And find a diagnosis list for psychopath… Top of the list
Liar
Lack of emotion and fellow feeling
Tom is making sense here. There’s nothing you can do to make him feel bad for what he’s done, or to come between him and this new person. It will only cause more trouble for you. The best thing is No Contact, which includes Facebook. Time and distance from him are the only things that will help you to see clearly.
You can be prepared for her to come to you asking questions… Then you can send her here … Maybe she’ll come to realize what she’s dealing with?
If she comes asking questions. I’ve heard plenty of stories of people seeking their partner’s exes for information, so it is possible.
Oh good point… All of us that have had a relationship with a psychopath should
Think back… Do you remember anyone that was treated badly by them? This is a person who was discarded by them… They will understand if you say” I was recently treated badly by this person(and the flying monkies?) the way you were… Having sombody who understands what you went through is invaluable!
My ex’s aunt was such a person…( the flying monkies attacked her before me! They tried to get me to be a flying monkey and treat the aunt badly… but I was disgusted at the thought of treating someone badly…not as I would want to be treated! lol I contacted her and found she also wouldn’t treat others badly either!
I remember two women treated badly by him. He ignored them completely, and it obviously upset them. This was in a dancing context. He would not ask them to dance, and when I asked him why, he said they were “too needy.” I asked him to explain, but he wouldn’t. Now I know what it was all about. We were surrounded by flying monkeys. Everyone knew I was the victim du jour, but no one said anything. One night, one of the ignored women walked up to me and said, “I guess you know what’s going on around here by now!” All I could say was, “Actually, I’m becoming more confused every day.” She stormed off, and didn’t mention it again.
If he was capable of better, he would have behaved better long ago. When I would struggle seeing him happy with his new partner, I would remember how many people viewed “us” to be a happy couple when I was with him. They couldn’t know my constant despair and deminishing self esteem. I was consumed with the feeling of not being “enough.” I was also in perpetual detective mode!
I have no doubt the new gf is putting up with a lot and in constant fight or flight, questioning her intuition. I bet her adrenals are shot and gut is telling her to run because he is lying and having sex with many others!
All I have to do is remember what happened with me, which is also what happened to to the ex wives and past gf’s. It happened to all the woman he drew into his lair.
Not to long ago I did see a photo of them. He looks basically the same, but she looks so different. Lost is her youthful glow, her innocence and beauty. She now looks tired and not all there. She has gained weight too.
I feel for her. It’s only a matter of time before the shoe droops.